Post by El Supremo on Jan 10, 2011 12:45:04 GMT -5
Thoughts on the Force -
We are a young site, still in the fledgling stages. Creation and implementation of rules and guidelines about the use of the force is one of the things to be nailed down.
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter. Take them for what it is worth this is not set in stone, nor even in mud. This post is in two sections: Background Concept and further down Implementation. First off, why and what we/I think and secondly how to implement those ideas into the RP of the game via rules or suchlike.
Background Concept
Rankings for Force Users:
Through the movies and the various novels let alone many of the games and less canon sources, we have lots of rank type terms bumping around, each source and author has different ideas of what rank is and how it works. Some of these are more consistent than others in their own orders, others are totally subjective and only appear in one source, or to make it more confusing have different meanings for the same when comparing between sources.
So, in light of this, let us turn to the movies and take the examples of Anakin and Luke:
There is no doubt of the horsepower and skill with which Anakin used the force. At one point Palpy even "makes" him a member of the Jedi Council... now what does that mean in the movie? This is what I see:
Anakin in rank (the respect paid to him as courtesy and honor) was a Master, at least to those not members of the Council. To the sitting council members, he was allowed to be present and participate in the Council to a degree. However it was not will full privilege as the others.
We already know he was as powerful and skilled as several of the Masters, but he lacked the maturity to be one in earnest. In short, his title neither reflected his privileges, nor was dictated by his level of accomplishment in the force. It appears to be an honorific only, and one that was not fully honored by the Council in practice. However due to the nature of the war and his skill, many of the lower, less skilled Jedi treated him and viewed him as a true master. If this was an assumption on their part since he sat on the council and was sometimes referred to as Master I do not know.
Luke in the movies did not have anyone to appoint him or bestow upon him the rank of Knight, he assumed it on his own... granted he was an order of one, it is not like there was anyone else to do so. In essence it would have been practically meaningless to a Jedi from the days of the Order, at least until the Jedi could make the judgment for his own. We do know he was Training to become a Knight, that was the term both he and Yoda used for what he would become after he completed his training with Yoda, which never properly occurred. But I feel it is an accurate gauge of skill to title. He was accomplished when he adopted the title of Jedi Knight, I believe equivalent in skill, power and maturity to one from the days of the order. These give us some guidelines to use.
Implementation:
Because of the variances above, because of the size of the site, and because it is different...
Here is an idea I purpose:
Rank in an Order (Jedi, Sith, Other) is something determined as a nature of RP, and may or may not have anything to do with the skill level and power of a character in the force. Each order can determine that on their own.
In the movies and the books, the force was a very unique and personal thing to all force users. There were averages but it was not a mathematical formulation to all of: "If X=Y2 then N" As such, I feel it is best that the force "powers" of each character be listed out at least as a laundry list. The initial force powers possessed by a character on entry to play will be approved by me, at least for now.
About me approving it... I am going to be more inclusive than exclusive, and until such time as I have seen enough people submitting characters with force powers, I really cannot provide you with examples of do's and dont's. A good general frame of reference in powers I will take from the movies. A proper Jedi (not quite a Knight, but not a Padawan either) as a absolutely brand new middle of the road character would be equivalent to Luke on Bespin in ESB.
For "rank" here are some terms and what they mean to me:
Padawan: A learner, it is not truly a rank but a state of agreement (or an acknowledgment of respect, affection, or insult to a former Padawan) It is the term used for student, and a English language equivalent would be the old Knightly position of a Page. It is the student portion of a student-teacher relationship. Why people need to be in this formalized and restrictive relationship is because they are either not of adult age, too immature to be by themselves, or their control over the force or their maturity of mind to control it is so low that they are viewed as a potential danger. (That their skill in not necessarily enough to prevent a power from accidentally going off, or if used can get away from them.)
Jedi (as rank but with no other modifier):
One who has completed their basic training, one who is no longer in a teacher-student relationship. These are the level of people that are expected and viewed as being able to go out into the galaxy on their own without having to be chaperoned. This is the recommended starting point for brand spanking new characters.
Jedi Knight
A person who has risen above in some capacity and is honored within the order. There is something "more" to them than the average Jedi. Like sergeants and junior officers they frequently are the ones put in charge of missions of multiple Jedi, or are sent by themselves in critical situations. A Jedi may be elevated for many reasons, skill in combat or the force, knowledge of the force, excellence in a particular non-force skill that is viewed as meaningful to the Order. Though a well rounded being, who is highly proficient in combat, with a good head on their shoulders, is the normal distinction.
Jedi Master:
Like a Knight, but more-so, and with a greater emphasis in skill with or knowledge of the Force. In the heyday of the Jedi, it appears that most of the Masters spent their time in semi-isolation delving the mysteries of the Force from within. While some become so gifted in combat that that is the reason for their mastery, it is actually not the majority. In the time of the late Republic and post Order-66, that changed so now most in the current time are masters of combat or combat capable force powers. "Lost Masters" of any order still may exist out there, how Yoda lived on Dagobah is a good analogy, he spent most of his days wrapped within the force studying it.
Jedi Grandmaster:
A true rank title, a way to distinguish "first among peers" an honorific.
Note, the Jedi are the ones given as an example... Sith, Dark Jedi, Imperial Knights, Nightsisters, etc. each would have their own structure and terms that could compare. They have their own organizational culture... and of course that depends greatly on the will of the head of a particular Order. I encourage players to come up with their own terms from the E-SW genre, and put them in use in their RP
If you like or dislike my idea feel free to comment to this initial post in this thread. However please PM me if you are in opposition to a statement in here another player suggests in this thread. But feel free to agree with them here publicly.
We are a young site, still in the fledgling stages. Creation and implementation of rules and guidelines about the use of the force is one of the things to be nailed down.
Here are some of my thoughts on the matter. Take them for what it is worth this is not set in stone, nor even in mud. This post is in two sections: Background Concept and further down Implementation. First off, why and what we/I think and secondly how to implement those ideas into the RP of the game via rules or suchlike.
Background Concept
Rankings for Force Users:
Through the movies and the various novels let alone many of the games and less canon sources, we have lots of rank type terms bumping around, each source and author has different ideas of what rank is and how it works. Some of these are more consistent than others in their own orders, others are totally subjective and only appear in one source, or to make it more confusing have different meanings for the same when comparing between sources.
So, in light of this, let us turn to the movies and take the examples of Anakin and Luke:
There is no doubt of the horsepower and skill with which Anakin used the force. At one point Palpy even "makes" him a member of the Jedi Council... now what does that mean in the movie? This is what I see:
Anakin in rank (the respect paid to him as courtesy and honor) was a Master, at least to those not members of the Council. To the sitting council members, he was allowed to be present and participate in the Council to a degree. However it was not will full privilege as the others.
We already know he was as powerful and skilled as several of the Masters, but he lacked the maturity to be one in earnest. In short, his title neither reflected his privileges, nor was dictated by his level of accomplishment in the force. It appears to be an honorific only, and one that was not fully honored by the Council in practice. However due to the nature of the war and his skill, many of the lower, less skilled Jedi treated him and viewed him as a true master. If this was an assumption on their part since he sat on the council and was sometimes referred to as Master I do not know.
Luke in the movies did not have anyone to appoint him or bestow upon him the rank of Knight, he assumed it on his own... granted he was an order of one, it is not like there was anyone else to do so. In essence it would have been practically meaningless to a Jedi from the days of the Order, at least until the Jedi could make the judgment for his own. We do know he was Training to become a Knight, that was the term both he and Yoda used for what he would become after he completed his training with Yoda, which never properly occurred. But I feel it is an accurate gauge of skill to title. He was accomplished when he adopted the title of Jedi Knight, I believe equivalent in skill, power and maturity to one from the days of the order. These give us some guidelines to use.
Implementation:
Because of the variances above, because of the size of the site, and because it is different...
Here is an idea I purpose:
Rank in an Order (Jedi, Sith, Other) is something determined as a nature of RP, and may or may not have anything to do with the skill level and power of a character in the force. Each order can determine that on their own.
In the movies and the books, the force was a very unique and personal thing to all force users. There were averages but it was not a mathematical formulation to all of: "If X=Y2 then N" As such, I feel it is best that the force "powers" of each character be listed out at least as a laundry list. The initial force powers possessed by a character on entry to play will be approved by me, at least for now.
About me approving it... I am going to be more inclusive than exclusive, and until such time as I have seen enough people submitting characters with force powers, I really cannot provide you with examples of do's and dont's. A good general frame of reference in powers I will take from the movies. A proper Jedi (not quite a Knight, but not a Padawan either) as a absolutely brand new middle of the road character would be equivalent to Luke on Bespin in ESB.
For "rank" here are some terms and what they mean to me:
Padawan: A learner, it is not truly a rank but a state of agreement (or an acknowledgment of respect, affection, or insult to a former Padawan) It is the term used for student, and a English language equivalent would be the old Knightly position of a Page. It is the student portion of a student-teacher relationship. Why people need to be in this formalized and restrictive relationship is because they are either not of adult age, too immature to be by themselves, or their control over the force or their maturity of mind to control it is so low that they are viewed as a potential danger. (That their skill in not necessarily enough to prevent a power from accidentally going off, or if used can get away from them.)
Jedi (as rank but with no other modifier):
One who has completed their basic training, one who is no longer in a teacher-student relationship. These are the level of people that are expected and viewed as being able to go out into the galaxy on their own without having to be chaperoned. This is the recommended starting point for brand spanking new characters.
Jedi Knight
A person who has risen above in some capacity and is honored within the order. There is something "more" to them than the average Jedi. Like sergeants and junior officers they frequently are the ones put in charge of missions of multiple Jedi, or are sent by themselves in critical situations. A Jedi may be elevated for many reasons, skill in combat or the force, knowledge of the force, excellence in a particular non-force skill that is viewed as meaningful to the Order. Though a well rounded being, who is highly proficient in combat, with a good head on their shoulders, is the normal distinction.
Jedi Master:
Like a Knight, but more-so, and with a greater emphasis in skill with or knowledge of the Force. In the heyday of the Jedi, it appears that most of the Masters spent their time in semi-isolation delving the mysteries of the Force from within. While some become so gifted in combat that that is the reason for their mastery, it is actually not the majority. In the time of the late Republic and post Order-66, that changed so now most in the current time are masters of combat or combat capable force powers. "Lost Masters" of any order still may exist out there, how Yoda lived on Dagobah is a good analogy, he spent most of his days wrapped within the force studying it.
Jedi Grandmaster:
A true rank title, a way to distinguish "first among peers" an honorific.
Note, the Jedi are the ones given as an example... Sith, Dark Jedi, Imperial Knights, Nightsisters, etc. each would have their own structure and terms that could compare. They have their own organizational culture... and of course that depends greatly on the will of the head of a particular Order. I encourage players to come up with their own terms from the E-SW genre, and put them in use in their RP
If you like or dislike my idea feel free to comment to this initial post in this thread. However please PM me if you are in opposition to a statement in here another player suggests in this thread. But feel free to agree with them here publicly.
